Reevaluating default content in game

[NiteHawk]

There are a few things I'd like to discuss for changes and suggestions. This does not include much "ADDING" unless there is a reason to discuss "ADDING" new things, but more what is "currently" in SF. You can feel free to post suggestions, changes, dislikes/likes, etc etc that you feel as well. I am not trying to start any fights, so let's have a civil post here. I will list them in numbers. This could be things that can be changed 'coding wise' and 'file editing wise' (much like we do now for file editing..).

1. Marauders: These ships were created for the soul purpose of giving the 'admirals club' a advantage over non paying subscribers. As the game is now free, this ship is just plainly overbalanced. Though we should still use the ship image for another ship, I feel that the ship should actually be removed to balance things out. The ship is tiny like a scout, but has the firepower of a much larger ship. It creates a huge unbalance and is pretty unfun to play. I would like to see this ship more just above the Scout class, like a Corvette class type.

2. AI Starbases: There primarily used for docking and defending on there own, but there quite annoying since you cannot destroy them. But the reason was simply for the fact that you cannot 'upgrade' your system due to this reason. Well, I do honestly welcome that. If you cannot defend a AI starbase from being destroyed, then that is your loss. However, they still need to be beefed up to take more damage then a general starbase. But they would be rebuilt very shortly on a planet, unlike before where it would take a good while.
2B. Another way to solve AI Starbases is to have them after a certain damage point, instead of exploding, disabled. Disable the ship from firing and moving, but allow the tractors to still be used to upgrade, but it still seems funny this way.
2C. Being able to upgrade at planets might be a better solution then docking on a SB, not sure.

3. Ship changes: The ships are pretty unbalanced as it is, they need some good changes. This might help if the Marauder was removed, but we'll see. I'd love to see the whole fact of using more then 12 slots in a ship, as they are ALL the same. Perhaps using less slots on scouts, and gradually gaining slots as you gain a bigger ship. This would have to be tweaked dramatically, and currently it is borked if you have more then 12 slots on a ship. But minus the 12 slots, the ships can still be tweaked properly.

4. Modules: Talking about equipment on a ship here.. More weapons, more generic things. Excluding shields, armor, and such like that, alot of modules should have 'less hitpoints' to be disabled. For example, laser1 to laser3 have 200 hitpoints before being disabled. The penalty for having a harder hitting weapon should be less structure base and more firepower. For example:
Laser I: 225 hit points
Laser II: 175 hit points
Laser III: 125 hit points

EDIT: Maybe not for hitpoint changes, we can actaully change hit points depending on the different power types, etc instead of the level.

Thus for more firepower, you have a more chance to get disabled. Currently the real only thing to actually be disabled are your bloody engines though out of everything. And for 'starbase' weapons, like laser3, you can keep the hitpoints high, since you know they will only be on a starbase. In the future, creating ship only weapons could be a possibility.

As for engines like I stated, make more diversity. For example, have a engine drive with less hitpoints, more energy usage, and more speed. And another engine type that has high hitpoints (preventing a good chance to be disabled), high/low energy usage, and less speed.

And here is a big thing.. Why the hell aren't we using power capacity limits? Currently all we use is how fast power regenerates, but not the actual CAPACITY. Yes, there is a setting for this! Though not stated in the help files, Fuel/brake/power/etc do have settings for a reason.

As you know, for example, the Power 1 will generate 600 power regeneration. Anything below this or being currently used, and it will reduce this (For example, using 3 weapons that draw 700 power, and I will start losing my power capacity until it is at 0. Since 700 > 600), thus the higher Power upgrade you have, up to 6, the better regeneration you will get. Now for capacity:

   [race]       *        100  1500  600      100        none        none   power*50                   [nr]1001

See that power*50, capacity is the *50. For all powers, its the same! No diversity. We can make average powers (like the current ones.) Or do something with a slow regeneration but high capacity. For example something like:

   [race]       *        100  1500  400      100        none        none   power*100                   [nr]1007

Should have double the capacity, but lower regeneration. Everything uses regeneration, engines, weapons, radar, etc. This would be good for ships that are willing to have a more 'first strike' attack, since after you use power, it takes alot longer to regenerate to full, but you get a more lasting, first fire. This will basically mean, kill the opponent on the first strike, else you'll have huge power issues.

More powerful shields, but slower regen, or vise versa.

There is much more, long story short, more different variations of equipment to create different outcomes.

5. Planets moving, but super slowly. Normally in the local versions planet rotate around the sun, pretty quickly too, and in online versions, they do not. My suggestion is to make the planets rotate, but very very slowly, super slow. This still effects the planets speed, but without creating so much lag. I think the planets moving didn't cause much lag, but even still, the planets moving at a much more slow rate may be better.

6. In general, ships should be modified as well. They seem to weak for what they are. Simply put, a starbase shouldn't get a quick death by a ramming scout, and things like that. But this may possibly be editing the size of equipment not to be on quick ships like that, and such.

7. Sound can also be added, higher def, though it may be good to wait until we can swap over to less giant files then the current wav files.

8. Better colony design. As of, the colonies barely fire, and they simply are just pathetic. Colonies need to be able to defend themselves, and possible need to be more same type. I never understood the whole minor colony being pathetic because if you grabbed colonies from let us say a asteroid, and placed it on a bigger planet that is uncolonized, it will become minor, will it not? Thus useless to not get colonies from anything but a home planet if you want more defence. They should all technically be the same, or adjust to the planet type default (that would require coding), such as minor, major, etc.

9. Cloaking.. Things like this should perhaps be only depending on specific ships, big ships shouldn't be able to cloak. Stealth ships designed for it, that is. But perhaps not, sort of iffy on this.

Just some examples, not stating, "LETS DO THIS UP NOW", but suggestions and such can always throw up for reference. A good portion of this can be done before even coding.

[ChillFactor]

Well, regarding the Marauder Class I have to say I don't agree.

Marauders are usually small, fast ships used for stealth assaults, at least, I use it that way.
Perhaps what could change is the weapon capacity, instead of 4 tubes make it 3 and let it have less shield capacity, since the whole idea is to make a swift kill with what you have.

[NiteHawk]

I do agree chill, but thats what I'm generally implying. For such a small ship it really does huge amounts of damage. I'd love to see the other classes, like Cruisers or destroyers actually played. At the moment, its marauders, dreads, and sometimes starbases. A lowered power/one less tube would probably balance it out, but we'll have to see. Might be too much to take off. If its' made for assaults, for being that small, i'd say it would sacrifice room/shields for weapons. It also needs a 'rank'.. Right now anyone can use it. Should be ranked like the other ships I think.. Maybe. I do however know the scout is generally useless, but the destroyer unlocks pretty quickly, and we can dumb down the ranks if there too hard. I think we should sit down and test all the ships and see how they act, though.

But I'm not sure, the marauder feels overpowering compared to the rest of the ship balance, else everyone wouldn't be using it.. No?

===

For some module editing, I've done a couple so far for testing, and I'll post them up so you understand a bit more.

Take this, throw in your data directory, but be sure to backup your sf_data_modules.sec before starting:

New things to test, when i do (30%) for example, its the default one you know. For example -30% for fusion reactors is basing it off the general POWER energy you can select in game. Mass makes the ship slower in general and can halt warp if too heavy, while vol is the weight when you add it to the ship. As well, for example, the power:1 would be similar to the fusion reactor:1, setting, with minor adjustments, which are found below.

I've also changed q-drives so the q-drive 1 can have a heavier ship to tug, but slower warp. Instead of the normal 35000 for all. Basicly, the slower the q-drive, the more you can warp around without that "TOO MUCH MASS" message.

Energy Cores:
Power - General power: Medium recharge, Medium energy capasity
Fusion Reactor: Slow recharge (-30%), Large energy capasity (+%50), Heavier mass, Larger vol - (Can fire more, but takes longer to recharge, good for alpha strike and run.)
Quantum Reactor: Fast recharge (+25%), Low energy capasity (-%40), Lighter mass, Smaller vol - (Drains out faster, but recharges quicker, good for multiple quick strikes.)

Warp drives:
Q-Drive 1: 1.00c - 40000 Max warp mass
Q-Drive 2: 2.00c - 37500 Max warp mass
Q-Drive 3: 3.00c - 35000 Max warp mass
Anti-Matter Drive: 7.00 - 32000 Max warp mass - HEAVY ENERGY USAGE - (Good for quick but short warps)

Shields:
Shield: - Average regeneration rate, Average max shield capasity
Plasma Shield: - Low regeneration rate(One level down), Large max shield capasity(+30%) - (Better for larger ship meets, lasts longer, but takes longer to recharge)
Deflector Shield: - High regeneration rate(One level up), Small max shield capasity(-25%) - (Better for smaller ship meets, will deminish quicker, but recharges quickly.)

Brakes:
New brake systems, the higher the level, the faster you stop, more energy drain, and lowered the vol to equip it.

===

This is just a small example, but you can play around with these and other things. I'll throw up a better one tommorrow. But just to show you.

I'd also love to use actual names, rather then POWER, ENGINES, why not Fusion Reactor? etc. Though right now can only use one name, so used "Fusion" for now. Attached data below.

I'll end up posting the exact specs sometime later. Need to figure out some things like the actual max energy capasity for example, though it states 50, I'm sure it's multipled by something.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Many things in generally should just be scrapped and replaced with a new system.

First on my list, is purchasing upgrades from Dock.

To purchase upgrades, you need an arbitrary amount of money.
To earn money, you must essentially be 'winning'.  (Kill enemies, conquer worlds, collect debris.)
To be able to kill enemies and conquer worlds, you need to be equiped to do so by purchasing upgrades.

As a result, in a server dominated by strong players, it quickly becomes hostile to newbie players.,, seeing as the only things killable without heavy, and expensive upgrades, is low value bots.
An Infinite Circle of Death.

Next, is the combined Ship,Modules,Weapons setup.
Frankly, the only thing I've ever seen in things like power 3 Engine 4 is annoyance.  A large capital vessel doesn't switch these out like swapping out the engine in a sports car... these are huge sophisticated, highly tuned pieces of equipment.  They should be a PERMENANT attribute to the ship's design.  Scientificly Engineered to handle the projected power consumption and mass of the vessel.

Leading on, ships in general need to be designed with research to actual classes.

Strike Craft (Also reffered to as 'scout', 'fighter', or 'bomber')
Face it, nobody uses a 'scout'...  so rename it to start with.  Next, it should be a threat to any ship, any size, because it is very small, very fast, and if geared armed right, can even kill a battleship.
It's arch nemesis should be ships equipped in countering them with point defenses, such as frigates and carriers.
(Operational Loadouts:  Interceptor, Bomber, Gunship)

********Cloaking minimum size border**********
Frigate
(Light Escort)
Excelent at point defense, manueverable, fast.  A frigate should be quite effective at being a nuscince to the heavies in its speed and manueverability, with enough rapid fire light weapons to make fighter squadrons S*it themselves.
(Variants: Escort Frigate, Assault Frigate, Support Frigate, Strike Frigate... etc.)


Destroyer
(Heavy Escort)
A destroyer would be like a Frigate, but heavier, less manueverable, and packing weapons dedicated to a more specialized combat roll.  The average destroyer is a fleet defender, capable of gunning with medium ships and providing fire support against other targets.  It's manueverability should be balanced to allow it to be a significant threat to even a large combatant when traded for its weapons.

Cruiser
A Cruiser should be the general 'most balanced' class of ship.  Containing an equal mix of speed and firepower, as well as specialization based on its loadout.  The average fleet should have a 'meat' consisting of cruisers doing most of the real work.  Such as blockading, attacking, towing... etc.

******Cloaking Mass Border**********

Battlecruiser
A heavier cruiser, less tuned for balance, more of an edge on 'get there' speed, and moderate firepower.  Considered in terms to be a 'fast battleship', a Battlecruiser's main purpose is heavy interdiction of enemy forces.  It should be cruiser fast, but with firepower greater than a normal cruiser, at the expense of actual agility and utility.

Battleship
Big, less manueverable, but with enough F(**k off!)irepower to make itself known.  There should be no 'utility' possible with this ship.  If you're in a battleship, your job is to shoot.  End of Discussion.

Carrier
The biggest, least manueverable... but with a style of gameplay that presents a player with a slight twist to the arcade play.  A carrier can launch Drone fighters.  AI controlled autonomous swarming things, that can be geared to act as fighter escort, long range bomber, or heavy defense force.  The carrier would have two groups of five, each group independantly 'tooled' by the controlling player to fullfill missions the same way he would gear an individual strike craft at the top of this list.  These drone fighters have the same characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, except 1: They are AI controlled, and thus STUPID, and 2: rely on a command ship to direct their activities.  (If it dies, they self destruct.)  The carrier itself should be equipped with light Point Defense weapons to counter other fighters.

(Variations: Strike Carrier, Battlecarrier, Super Carrier* 2X number of fighters.)


STARBASE:
A starbase needs to be tweaked.  It should be destroyable, but TOUGH... that should be it's primary attribute.  Not have brutal firepower.  It should be so stupidly tough because it's BIG, and HEAVILY ARMORED that a battleship can sit there and pound on it for a considerable amount of time.  (Long enough that if you realize the starbase is going down... you can get the heck away from it.)  The toughness of the Starbase would ensure that even though it's armed less intensely than a fully prepared battleship, it can still 'outslug' out of brute tenacity.
If you consider that a Starbase is going to be a huge spacedock that holds multiple battleships, this makes clear sense.


Going into weapons, the entire current weapon arrangement should be tossed out the window.  It's simply flawed.  You know it's flawed when most players only use the same group of five or six weapons.  They should be arranged into tiers based on range and power and conceptualized based on actual weapon JOBS you would expect in an arms race where people are trying to find ways to kill you, and counter your ways to kill them.

Class 1: Point Defense
This kind of weapon should be noted that it's job isn't really to kill ships, but to defend them.  A point defense can be a minigun, a short ranged pulsing laser... or an explosive countermeasure.  Their primary act should be using volume of fire to hit/kill incoming objects, such as missiles or heavy torpedos.  Though when used in large quantities, it DOES become dangerous for enemy ships.  Miniguns, pulse lasers, plasma flame throwers, and shockwave charges should fill this catagory, and be most numerous on Frigates.  Type projectile used should determine their individual stats.  Miniguns would use ammo that can be depleted, flames/lasers should use power... and of course, shockwave charges have plenty of ammo too... but... you know.  SHOCKWAVE.

Class 2: GUNS
Most numberous and widely ranged projectile weapon system in use should be the common gun, but it should be arranged in catagories that have advantages over others.

Mass Drivers - Mass drivers use physical projectiles to kill targets. These should use little or no power, as you can have them operate like battleship guns, and thus, be spammable without consideration of energy supplement.  They should be arranged in three sizes based on 'caliber' and have different ammo volumes depending on size.  (Small, Medium, and Heavy)  Their range should be one of thier selling points.  As they are solid mass objects, they CAN be shot down by point defenses... but the volume of fire and velocity presented means even a wall of PD fire won't stop them.

Directed Energy Cannons - DECs, AKA energy weapons, would probably classify as the common 'favorite' because they have no ammo needs.  Weapons such as particle cannons and pulse plasma cannons would be dependant on the ship's power grid and be energy intensive.  However, they lack the wide flying range of the mass driver rounds.  But what they lack in range, they make up in punch.  Plasma Cannon shots dissipate in short order, but hit hard enough to make you think twice about fighting up close.  And particle beam cannons create a lance of death, but for short times, and only for a short distance.  Asside from energy usage, these weapons produce heat, which reduces their refire rate compared to mass driver rounds.
As they are energy, they can't be shot down.

((Note, the plasma cannon would behave more like your typical pulse shot gun, where as a particle canon would behave like an LIII, but only in a fixed direction off the front of the ship for a moment or two.))

((Note 2;  Because they have both an energy AND heat factor... firing of energy weapons is more complicated than mass drivers.  Their refire rate is based off the heat dissipation of each gun.  This determines how fast one battery can fire.  The energy consumption will determine the total rate of fire of the entire weapons array based on how many of the guns are actually firing.  For example, one or two plasma cannons will fire non-stop at their normal refire rates without consuming available power.  Whether they are staggered, or salvo'd.  Opening fire with the entire ship's arsenal however, will drain energy resserves and cut into total rate of fire.))

Class 3: Missiles

SF missiles... are joke.  Smarts and HEATs... No.  Just... NO.
A missile should be a THREAT.  It's an expensive, highly tuned precision killing instrument.  A missile coming at you should have you thumbing for your point defenses (if you have them.)  And with a futuristic warhead that delivers something like a nuclear shaped charge... even a well shielded battleship should be worried if more than a few come their way.
Missiles should have certain characteristics that make thier use prefferable over a gun on smaller ships.  They home, hit harder than the equally sized gun round, and are fast.  Thusly, they can be used at longer ranges more accurately by smaller ships so they can effectively match heavies in terms of firepower.  And if you're a missile boat, you can spam them.
Missiles are what make Strike Craft more dangerous to Battleships.
A missile's natural enemy is Point Defense.  They can be shot down.

Missiles should be arranged into a few job catagories.  Anti-Fighter, Anti-ship, and Torpedo.
AF missiles are fast, accurate buggers... hard to shoot down, but lack any punch.  However, spammed in mass from a capital ship, fighters are going to be in trouble.  AS missiles are general ship killing beasts, they have normal wallop and should be considered dangerous.
Torpedos however, are 'dumb' missiles.  Minimal aim, but they have more wallop than anything.  They should be armored to withstand 'token' point defenses, but slower.  (When I say token PD, I mean, they're tough enough that they'll get past the one or two PD arrays someone's slapped on a ship just to cover themselves.)  Essentially, Torpedos are Battleship killers and the Great Equalizer of the tactical weapons array.  

Class 4: Strategic weapons.
If it's not one of the above, it's the following.  Speciallized, Strategic weapons.  These weapons are best used intelligently rather than 'shoot shoot shoot!'

Mines/Minefield - Mines should be hard to spot and small and moderately powerful... a minefieldshould make a ship slow down, making it easy pickings for other ships while it either manuevers carefully, or patiently clears it.
A minefield should deploy as a cloud from the deploying ship.  being dispersed into an array rather than individual super-mine placement.  There should be enough mine-ammo to deploy five to ten fields at a time.

Long Range Hypervelocity Railcannon (LR HVRC... 'Havoc'?)
Essentially the sniper rifle of the starships... the LRHVRC is an energy hungry cannon that fires a pinpoint accurate hyper velocity round over long distances, which hits quite hard.  Primary advantage is the ability to hit heavy vessels with devastating firepower while capitalizing on their weakness... lack of manueverability.  However, since it's a glorified mass driver, it's got some drawbacks. 1: it's energy hungry like firing an entire DE weapon salvo (Gotta have some awesome accellerators for this beast.) 2: It's difficult to aim the farther out you are... and hitting small fast targets becomes a nightmare better suited to more 'practical' weapons.  3: The large, heavy rounds fired a much more limited in ammo than conventional mass drivers.

Inter-system Cruise Torpedo - The ISCT is a glorified long range torpedo.  It's primary advantage is firing at standoff range.  Unlike the Havoc above, it's guided and just as nasty when it hits.  And seeing as you can fire it effectively at an enemy from long range... the only real warning to it is its appearance on your screen.  However, it's slower and subject to getting shot down like any torpedo and missile... or simply outran by a fast ship.


Class 5: F**K OFF! weapons.
Where would we be without a few superweapons?  The imfamous Freefloating Antimatter Weapon known as the Grand Galactic Grenade (G-3) fills this catagory as the one thing you want to avoid running into.  The G-3 is a remote detonated weapon that produces a large, devasting shockwave when it goes off.  Excelent as a little parting gift or trap.  Their power and volotility make them a hazzard even to the deploying ship... best not used in a firefight, as a stray hit could blow both parties away.  (Such is the nature of antimatter.)  **Yeah... we got to have the G3... for the nostalgia, and as an in-joke to the old days.)


Tossed 'ELITE' weapons.

RAM: No... just.  No.  I'd love to shout "RAM 'EM TILL THEY GIVE UP!" like anyone else... but the idea of essentially putting a bomb on your nose and slamming it into your opponent has inherent flaws.  You know... like blowing the front of your ship off and smashing the rest of your superstructure at impact.  Let it die.  

SF version omnidirectional 'lasers'.  :  I'm sorry, but these weapons were a joke.  Insta-zap weapons are irritating when you're going for a balanced online gameplay experience.  The low end barely touched anyone... and the high end was so overpowered it made an effective loadout near to godlike and unbalanced by all but extremely dedicated playing.  Let the PD lasers do the omnidirectional zap bit, and let the spinal mounted heavy particle cannon be your vicious (but short range) super laser of DEATH.  I always considered lasers I II and III to be more token use because the other guy had one.


Other issues:

Armor - This should be a fixed depending on the ship.  It's the freakin HULL, not some module you can swap out.  Perhaps if you HAVE to have special armor settings, you can have armor materials that you can purchase that ENHANCE your protective value.  But no Armor I, II, III with insanely different protection levels.  A battleship and/or starbase has the toughest armor... PERIOD.

Shields - All ships have a set shielding rating based on size and power output simply out of default necessity.  Increasing shield strength would only occure for a particular ship by purchasing extra shield generators... at the expense of hardpoints. (module slots)
No ship will be completely shield-less.  Incidently, the more shield generators you have.  The more power consumed, leaving less for the remaining weapons slots.

Cloak and Sensors -  Cloak should be allowed to run indefinately.  But have a lag time during the raising and lowering process so that it cannot be abused in a 'lightswitch' fashon of up and down appearances we've seen typically.  It should function more as a strategy than a tactic.    Also, the energy draw of the cloak should prohibit energy weapon use and keep shields down, but mass based weaponry and missiles should be shootable just to present some level of strategic threat by stealth ships.
Sensors, conversely, should be special key-triggered sensors that send out a pulse in a radius to 'ping' a cloaked ship, much like sonar.  (Because in space... it's actually near impossible to hide yourself.  So cloak should be more of hiding from passive sensors, but an active scan will find them.)  The pulse should have a recharge time of something like five seconds so you can't spam it constantly... and should be power intensive.  Sensors should have a few tiers... the higher the sensor version, the larger the scan pulse radius.

As an interplay between the Cloak, and the sensors... any ship, even as small as a strike craft can carry any sensor... but only the middle sized ships can carry a cloak.  (This means there's always more potential sensors than cloaks.)


Tractor Beams/Towing/Capturing

First off, drop the capture bit... it was rarely used, and simply annoying.
As for tractor beams... allow them to exist and function on all ships without some pesky 'module' slot, but make them draw energy.  If you're towing someone, your shields won't recharge (might even start to deplete if you're a small ship) and you have to rely on mass weapons.  And if you're towing say: a colony, you're not going anywhere fast.  (And if you drop a colony, it self destructs after a short time.  It's a freakin' COLONY!  Not a space ship!)

That's it for now.

[lalzar]

id like to say all those ideas are brilliant although it seems like a LONG drawn out project waiting to happen

[NiteHawk]

True, but it's enjoyable and gets hype up talking about it. If it never happens, I lose out on a couple days, but eh, I had fun neverless, so it does not bother me. I'm hoping it does however go past currently what it is.

I do most of the ideas ATC, especially the weapons. I was about to bring up myself about energy guns and projectile guns... Since right now the guns are pretty silly. I'm not ruling out the whole energy based ammo weapon, but that should be up at the top possible. projectile guns using only ammo, energy using only well.. Energy. It's a good idea.

Missiles as well. I was thinking about how SF does it... "LAUNCHING 100 MISSILES IN 2.1 SECONDS".. There not a threat, they fire too quickly, and they are easy to dodge, with very little damage anyways. Need a cooldown time here (Not energy time.)

Haha, the ram, it is a joke weapon, I totally agree there. Scouts destroying Starbases with one ram, since the faster you go, the better the ram is, doesn't take mass into effect!

Lasers.. Lasers.. Now I enjoy lasers, but I do agree, there not good here, they need to be changed. Perhaos lasers where you point and click to fire, wherever you fire would fire lets say a couple ships in the direction of the moues in a straight line.. I'm not sure. I enjoy lasers but the current laser is just simply stupid. I'm not even sure they should be swapped with generic weapons.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Well, I know how I think the stuff should behave... but to get there, I know there's a framework that has to be established... and this mainly involves a recode of the modules system in the game, as well as hardcoding a ship design.  (Or at least recoding so the ship has a set statistic profile in the ships file that includes all the basic flight dynamic features.)

Additional 'modules' on a ship should be its weapons plus extras.

Extras would be things like capacitor banks to store extra energy for prolonged attacks, more shield generators, larger magazines for more solid weapons with an effect like +X percent ammo storage boost.


I believe a ship file should be constructed thusly:

Ship fixed stats.

-Established Hull (Structural integrity)
-Reactor Power output (In Megawatts/Second)
-Engine thrust output. (In tons of thrust)
-Thruster output.  (Same)
-Internal Volume (This deals with how much stuff you can stuff into the ship.)
-Number of weapon hardpoints and the weapon size.  (A fixed number of weapons points independant of ship internal volume.  Although these slots will STILL take up some volume depending on ammo and internal machinery.)
-Default Shield Generator(s) output.  (In Megawatts)
-Default Armor thickness. (In inches or centimeters.)

This determines the basic characteristics of a ship.  Note an FTL drive is not a requirement, and neither is a tractor or cloak.  But shields and armor are imperative in space travel... as they protect you from radiation and micrometeoriods.

Now, I vote for establishing values in terms such as Megawatts, since having an actual value to look at allows you to get more immersion in the game.

Your reactor produces X units of energy a second... or rather... X Megawatts of energy.  The ship, when passive, uses Y amount of this energy.  Continuous energy drain comes from active energy draws, such as your shields, life support, and engines.  (Everything else draws negligable energy supplies.)  Peak drains will come from energy weapons discharge, cloaking devices, tractor beams, shield recharging, jump drive, etc.  So long as your reactor is in top shape, you get peak energy.
Now, changing from the original concept of SF ship setup... POWER will not establish when your ship will explode... but HULL integrity will.  As your reactor takes damge, instead of nearing exploding, you get reduced energy supply...  This reduces the total MW/s supply your ship has, and it beings prioritizing energy.  At first, your non-essentials can't run (sensors, cloak, tractor) then your weapons won't recharge... then your shields won't recharge if the power is below their rated MW/sec maintanance level.  (I'll explain this in a second.)  Then your enegines lose thrust...  When your reactor level drops below 20% of the total... you get a reactor breach... which starts doing slow hull damage... faster as you approach reactor level of 0%.  If you're not DEAD already, a reactor breach will certainly end up killing the ship over time if it doesn't get fixed. 

Energy Maintanance.

The passive output to maintain operational level is called 'maintanance'.  This is the minimum energy required to keep certain systems, like shields... running.  If your power output cannot feed the maintainance level of the system... it fails.  In the case of shields... lack of maintance energy will result in them 'Uncharging' ... with the rate of discharge depending on what power they may be getting.


Armor:
some things that will help renew the life of Armor, is that all ships start with a set armor density (It's an engineered ship)... but there ARE some things you can do to your armor.
You can select the armor material... which determines attributes.
Armor attributes could be like the following.
-Basic  (Normal)
-Carbon Composite (Absorbs energy extremely well, but brittle)  + X percent dispersion of energy weapons, - X dispersion to physical weapons.
-Metal Alloy (Stronger, harder to pierce with physical weapons, but conducts heat normally so energy weapons don't lose punch.) + X dispersion of ballistic weapons
- Elastic Material (Instead of trying to be HARD to stop things, it depends on distributing the force of physical weapons... but it has a weakness to energy weapons because of the complicated material makeup.)  + X dispersion to physical, - X dispersion to energy.

Now... to give ships unique bonuses... (the armor's just an example of one way to do it)... 

You can 'purchase' modifier components.  Instead of module slots, you simply have volume.  You have to balance what you want based on your volume, rather than your mass. 

But you can get modifier parts... such as
Reactor Heavy Cooling system. (Limit one).... + X % reactor output (needs a calculation to determine actual reactor boost)
Shield Gen. Surge Sink (shields)  + X % boost to shield dissipation value
Things like that.

Here's a kind of text diagram of what you'd see.

--FIXED TIER---- (Ship stats, do not change)
Blah blah blah
Blah Blah blah
--Weapon Slots-- (What guns go where... no cost for the player to change his weapons)
Hardpoint 1,2,3 Size S,M,L, or XL.
Hardpoint 4,5 SIZE S,M
Hardpoint 6,7,8,9 Size S only
--Internals-- (Volume, purchasable parts)
Extra Shield Gen X 2: Vol, 200 cu ft(?)
Capaciter Banks X 3 Volume 600 cu ft
Expanded Magazines X 4  XXX cu ft
Shield Surge Sink XXX cu ft
Cloaking Device XXX cu ft
Jump Drive XXX cu ft

You get the idea.  The idea is that the ships have reletively equal stature to their counterparts in all but weapons, and the extra components add minor extras or special abilities.

If you want a stealth missile boat... set all weapons to various missile and torpedo types, get a cloaking device, and buy expanded magazines ( + ammo). 
Want the beast of all offensive dreadnaughts?
Get a battleship, give yourself energy weapons for everything, install capaciters (+ total weapon energy charge), heatsinks (+ refire rate), and reactor add ons (+ total energy)

Even though your weapons are matched with a default version of your ship... you fire just that much faster and longer than the other guy.

And these lead to various customized 'variants' of ships.

I'll think more later.

[lalzar]

if what you guys are talking about gets made into reality it may be the most epic spaceship game of all time

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Not even close.


You want depth, but you don't want to pull a Dark Smart on the situation.

I have Universal Combat... like fourth in the Battlecruiser series.  The interface is hideously complicated.  You go into the game and the first thing that happens is "OMG!?  What do all these acronyms mean!?  How do I fly this bucket of bolts?"

[NiteHawk]

It's funny you say that, I have most of the UC series, and all hes done is added a few things. He's pretty much the worst person to work with and he has a huge attitude problem, he doesn't listen to anyone but his own thoughts. The game would of been better with a proper online system, but if you ask about anything like that, he locks the thread and bitches at you for suggestions. It's a shame because it would of been a great game. I had to actaully read the 100+ page manual to understand the game though, its' a pretty ok game, enjoyable since you can do almost everything in that game, but it seems limited when you are on land (cannot cap bases, meh.) It's basicly Battle Cruiser with a horrible ground/land based addon. It really though isn't as complicated as it seems, the issue is all the acros in the game, he doesn't make it friendly there.

Lalzar, though there are some big things, this is still a 2D game, which is also alot more simplier to work on then a 3D game. I do agree the last couple posts are farfetched in the future, but the aim of this would be to work towards it slowly, and get final thoughts on how things should be.

Before anyone starts coding, you lay out a 100+ page on how this and that is going to be, and you do minor changes as you go. Thats how many codes do it, they need a 'base' on how they should code. If you code blindly, you find out you want more changes then needed, thus coding 3-4 more times then required. It's not needed. By basing things now, we can aim to get there slowly, without the need of going "OH BUT IT SHOULD OF BEEN LIKE THIS" several times. For example, we don't add all the new weapons all at once, this week for example I'll "fix missiles" to what they should be, and next week I'll change energy based weapons and add projectiles. This is a long project, I'm willing to put alot into it as well.

In all sense, we can make this a very good 2D game.

---

Now that I have more time.. Continuing on ATCS post, for armor, I generally agree with this, more armor on bigger ships, armor should always be before any major system damage is done. There however could be different types of armor, one better against energy, one better against projectiles, etc. *EDIT: Just saw on the second post you talked about this.*

As you talked about shielding here, I'm not sure. The 'extra' module slots should be energy, shields, speed, that you can choose from, I do agree with that.. Generally I do think you should be able to change shielding, but set to the ship itself. For example, small shields, medium shields, large shields, etc. All being around the same 'max' shielding, but having different varations, higher/lower output, higher/lower max capasity, but nothing in a giant ballpark... *EDIT: Also saw you had something like this in yours*

But perhaps all modules such as shielding should have extra slots within the shield, for example, small extra modules within the shield. So lets say a small shield I has 2 extra modules slots WITHIN the shield, which can change the strength against certain types, max, recharge rate, etc. Nothing MAJOR or difficult, just a simple addon system.

Yeah cloaks do need adjusting. And I do like the sensor idea. We'd have to see/balance what ship can get cloak though.

Capturing should probably be dropped, it was very annoying. You should simply not be able to tractor anyone not on your team. Make it a function that doesn't take up slots.

Colonies probably can work like you want them now actually, Just have to adjust a few thing I'm sure you could. However for the quick space death would require some editing.

I don't think however the scout ship, though weak right now, should be super powerful. That should actually be a Corvette class I'd say. But naming them fighters is, to me, is not correct I feel. Fighters are super tiny, probably double/triple size of a missle, width wise. A carrier launching ships as big as 'scouts' would be pretty crazy. I'd leave fighters/bombers to the carriers, and name this different. Corvettes would be very fast, and minimal with firepower, but a average size, usually half of a destroyer, or 3/4 of a frigate.

I agree with your damage system and as well changing the units of measurement. There so basic and do require changing. I also agree with the energy management, its' basicly, correct. What about energy based weapons that require energy, should they have there own set 'energy' before using the main energy? You know what I am talking about, each weapon has its own energy, and when depleted, uses the main energy on the ship. I'm wondering if that is still a 'good' idea, though it makes SF different from other games, however.

Variants of ships would be awesome. As well as being able to save the 'current' ship you have modified. Always changing your ship seems to be a hassle. It would however be saved only on the same server. Perhaps have a 1 hour limit before it vanishes and you have to remod your ship.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

A quick note on size you commented on.  You say it's pretty silly for a carrier to launch scout sized fighters...  Then again, we're talking about a game who's scaling has major colonized planets four times the width of the average ship. 



Now, the way energy works is this.


The Main reactor produces 100 MW of power each second.

Immediately off the bat, the priority systems grab that energy for their maintanance.

Life Support: 5 MW/sec
Engines: 10: MW/sec

Shields 10 MW/sec


This leaves 75 units of energy to go around.

The weapons.  For each energy weapon powered up.  They use maintanance energy as well.
H Plasma Disruptor Cannon 1: 5 MW/sec
H Plasma Disruptor Cannon 2: *
H Plasma Disruptor Cannon 3: *

So the PDCs use a total of 15 MW/sec.
They use these to 'remain' charged and ready to fire on command.

This leaves available power going around at 60 MW/sec

After firing their shot, their power consumption doubles during their recharge cycle.  So instead of the three using 15 MW/sec... they jump to 30 MW/sec.

Dropping the available energy to 45 MW/sec free to use.

Now, assume the ship is in active combat.

The ship uses 25 MW to power itself... and with the three cannons going full tillt and the shield recharging... you get the 15 for weapon 'maintanance' power, plus the extra 10 loss because the shield is trying to recharge to its maximum rating.

This leaves the free energy at a worrisom 35 MW/sec... though still plenty to have the ship running.

Now, let's toss in some a problem.  The ship takes damage, and you lose thirty percent of your power core.  This means you START with 70 MW/sec total power consumption...

Which means, all said and done, you have 5 MW/sec extra.  If you drop below 65% reactor level... you start having systems being underfed.  Starting with the non-essentials and working back towards the high priorities.  If a system does has energy between the required charge amount, and the maintanance amount, it charges slowely.  If it has just the maintanance amount, it doesn't recharge.
If you don't even reach the maintanance charge... the system starts to lose charge if it already had it, it loses power faster the less energy it gets supplied...  And so on and so forth.

When the reactor reaches 20 percent (which is below the minimum maintanance level for the systems as well...) it enters 'breach state'... where it starts doing damage to the hull...  At the same time... you get the 'reactor critical' alarm (http://www.sheezyart.com/view/1905566/) warning you you're in deep DEEP doggie doodoo... and should get the heck out of the fight now.

If you somehow managed to survive the fight...  it might be interesting that you might have an add on module for emergency power... which allows you to shut down the main using a toggle key command, and provide enough power for the ship's minimal thrusters, weak engine power, and life support until the damage control gets the reactor back above twenty percent.

Incidently, I would definately vote for that sound effect above as the reactor critical alarm... considering it's name is 'Nuclear Alert'.

In fact, the ship should have three emergency alarms.  One minor, un-obtrusive alarm for shield failure, one siren for critical hull state, and the Nuclear Alert.

As long as I'm at alarms... I'd like to expand on them.

A cruising ship should have operational power modes.  In cruise mode, the shields run at half, and the weapons are powered down, leaving power for utility systems. 

Then you get an alert klaxon to approaching hostiles.  "BwooOOOP!"  (Just once when the first hostile is in range... where you would go into RED alert)  Then you bring the ship to battle mode, which has a fun sounding industrial klaxon and some nifty 'warming up' sounds as you switch to battle power.

When the shields drop below say... thirty percent, you get a pleasant voice going "Shields Critical"...

When your hull drops below twenty percent... you start hearing an industrial rapid buzzer alarm combined with an air raid siren...  errrt errrt errrt EEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo...  (Time to run for the life of you!)

When you're beat up in a firefight... You've got this combination of the reactor critical alarm and a hull critical alarms all screaming at you and you're just like... "We're going down!  Abandon ship!  ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP!

And to add a bit of pizzaz to the end... instead of just going 'BOOM' at the end... your ship should take a few seconds to break up before going KERPOW!  Giving you the mental time to go "NOOOOOOOOOOOAAARGHHHH-*STATIC*"  At least, for bigger ships.  The bigger you are, the longer the death sequence should be.

To get an idea, listen to this http://www.sheezyart.com/view/1795843/
and listen for that first missile hit and the panicked reactor failure and ciritcal hull... the alert klaxon would be the sound while the guy's going "WHERE'D THAT COME FROM?!" 


For the battlestations... listen for the 'chirp-chirp ERRRRRRGT!   ERRRRRGT!" ...etc.

I'm crazy for good dramatic sounds in battle.

[CloakedKiller]

One thing I completely agree with here is ATCs idea on what to do about Starbases.

They need to be very tough, but not as powerful offensively. The ultimate protection of planets should fall upon the players, not Starbases... I could go into depth here, but I really do think that it is a common agreement that Starbases could use a major roll switch in order to be properly implemented.

I also agree that AI Starbases should be destroyable, but able to respawn fairly quickly (not too quickly)... If they weren't so easily destroyed, I think that it would make for a much more interesting conquer of the solar system, and require a little more strategic planning and skill level on the parts of the players.

I'm still taking a lot of these things into consideration. Definitely a lot of good ideas here, I just don't know how they're going to play off of eachother.

[DarkSun]

In brief I agree with a lot of what Nite and ATC have been discussing in this thread. I agree that having a Scout, for example, be able to destroy a Starbase in short order, which it currently is able to do with the proper setup, is ludicrous. Starbases need to be toughened up on the defense side. I think Starbases also need to have their top speed (with boost) reduced, almost a third of the speed of light is a bit fast relative to the speed of other, supposedly much less ponderous ships. However I feel that Starbases should not be made less powerful offensively, I think we can treat it as something that has a lot of firepower offensively and is very tough defensively but moves slowly (both in top speed as well as in acceleration), has abysmal maneuverability, and has limited effective solo striking range. Starbases should always either need to be close to a friendly colony or should need to be supported by a friendly fleet, solo Starbases rampaging through the system at high fractions of lightspeed is not good.

As for the Marauder, relative to other ships it is definitely vastly overpowered. It is extremely powerful offensively, has a large volume, is extremely agile and fast, and defensively is easily as strong as a Battleship. This is insane. This is why you rarely, rarely see a serious player flying a Cruiser or Battleship - the Marauder is simply leagues better. The Dreadnought sees at least limited use due to its capability for easily carrying a shield 6 but even that is handily offset by the vastly superior maneuverability, speed, and stealth of the Marauder. If I were to duel myself using a Marauder on one side and a Dreadnought on the other, the Marauder would win basically every time. Again, this is insane. Restricting the Marauder by rank is fine but the more important thing is it needs to be cut down to size. Perhaps something in between a Destroyer and a Cruiser? It might fit in well there just as BattleCruiser fits between Cruiser and Battleship.

I am unsure how easy it would be to have ships be able to refit on planets but in theory I think that is a good idea. The refit-at-AI-starbase setup with only three docking slots per starbase is - well, it could be better.

One thing that wasn't brought up is, I think it should be made easier to 'kill' a planet. Currently the population decline per second, when under constant fire, decreases apparently exponentially the lower the population gets, making it take a patently ludicrous amount of time to kill the last few thousand people on a planet. And this is just not in line with reality.

Speaking of planets: I think they should be beefed up on the defensive side. Having a planetary shield but having it only be of level 4 is a bit weak. Planets should have shields of strength equal to the shields on the reimagined Starbases. They shouldn't have armor though; I think we can all agree how absurd it would be to have an 'armored' planet. It would block out all starlight for one thing: not a good idea. Yet current planets are always armored...

And of course offensively they should be able to do a bit more than fire one torp and a sputtering laser once every few minutes... but they should definitely not be made too tough offensively, the primary offensive firepower being relegated to friendly ships or the orbiting Starbase.

I don't really have much to add to the other points. You guys are doing amazing, please keep it up.

[NiteHawk]

I agree, but to lower the Starbase general speed we need to have it so it cannot have boosters, as well as lowering planet gravity properly, while still having a bit so that the starbase will get slightly pulled. Currently if you don't have boosters and you leave the field, you get sucked in and its almost impossible to get out if you don't sit and hold your button for a hour. AI don't seem to be affected as much as you, if at all. I'd enjoy to see starbases back to around 5 (speed wise) or a bit less even if we solve the gravity pull, I was thinking the larger the ship, the less the pull, as it currently is. Do it via total mass most likely. Starbases need a vast improvement for defence, and offensive might need to be a bit better, minus a laser that can fire from giant ranges. Needs pure fast guns and such.

Looking at shield 6, its pretty pathetic. Even though they double the rate of recharge, the max capasity almost matches a shield 4. I fully agree about the Marauder. And something between a Destroyer and Cruiser would be perfect.. I'm just editing things now, just to play around and get some results.

A colony planet with rapid2 doesn't fire it like a starbase, but it fires MORE then one shot. It's very nice actually for defence. I'll post some things up soon. It fires about 5-6 shots, which are pretty fast, makes you actually have to move and fire.

As for beefing up the defence of colonies, I agree, I did it for a bit, but there is currently no way to not have a player 'grab' the same defence, so I removed it since its pretty useless. A shielding of about 3000 does really well, (currently about 1000 with shield4/5) and you really need to tweak the armor properly to actually protect properly, currently if you don't have armor, the pop goes down ALOT quicker. It needs to be edited so armor isn't required, but it is still beefy. But the whole last 100k population dying would def need some coding tweak, and I fully agree about it as well, its very useless the way it is when your trying to kill the remaining. ATC's whole effect can come into play here in a sense, but instead of power, use people -- The more people on a colony, the stronger it gets, as it can fire more, defend better. As it gets weaker, it takes slower to recharge, fire, etc. This would actually make putting EXTRA colonies worthwhile instead of capping all planets with 100k people.

Planets should be better protected against generic guns.. There generic guns!. Generic guns should be used for removing shields, and bombs should be highly deadly as they are now, but not if there shields are fully up. This creates a better feel to it.

[NiteHawk]

Okay file done. Anyways, this really has no impact to what we are 'going' to be doing, just more tests and having some fun with the editors. If you need to be ranked up, grab sf_data_ranks.sec, log in locally, and you'll gain ranks. This is also really only for local side sol right now.

Again, this has no impact to what we will be doing, just simple tests. Backup the data folder. The generic modules like 'booster', and 'shield' are still there, and when I compare, I am comparing at those normal modules that were already in.

Changed:

Initial Startup - Laser Defence I believe is for AI, not for players, turned on. Does not affect player. AI_level high, even though still stupid. Planets move at a very slow rate, enough to create a rotation, but doesn't create lag to mess up things. Lowered gravity pull of planets enough to suck small ships but has more issues with larger (starbases).

I think a big thing that will change ships is more then 12 modules working PROPERLY in game as well to balance it more. the same 4 guns (Normally) on each ship is pretty plain.

===

Marauder - Total volume of 2400 instead of 2600. Lowered initial power/shields to 3/3, kept booster:3, engine:3, qwarp:3. The volume changes it so it is just under a Destroyer. Inceased speed a bit. (Doesn't include booster speed. May have to weak total volume.)

Scout - Renamed to Corvette, increased speed to be a tad faster then the Marauder. (Doesn't include booster speed.)

Starbase - Cut speed in half, (Pretend to not have boosters, since we cannot halt that.)

===

Energy Cores:
Fusion Reactor: Slow recharge (-30%), Large energy capasity (+%50), Heavier mass, Larger vol - (Can fire more, but takes longer to recharge, good for alpha strike and run.)
Quantum Reactor: Fast recharge (+25%), Low energy capasity (-%40), Lighter mass, Smaller vol - (Drains out faster, but recharges quicker, good for multiple quick strikes.)

Warp drives:
Q-Drive 1: 1.00c - 40000 Max warp mass
Q-Drive 2: 2.00c - 37500 Max warp mass
Q-Drive 3: 3.00c - 35000 Max warp mass
Anti-Matter Drive: 7.00 - 32000 Max warp mass - HEAVY ENERGY USAGE - (Good for quick but short warps)

Shields:
Plasma Shield: - Low regeneration rate(One level down), Large max shield capasity(+30%) - (Better for larger ship meets, lasts longer, but takes longer to recharge)
Deflector Shield: - High regeneration rate(One level up), Small max shield capasity(-25%) - (Better for smaller ship meets, will deminish quicker, but recharges quickly.)

Brakes:
New brake systems, the higher the level, the faster you stop, more energy drain, and lowered the vol to equip it.

Armor:
Lowered armor values to 100/175/250.

Engines:
Ion Engine: Less energy used, heavier mass, heavier vol. Turning reduction slightly reduced from normal engines.

Boosters:
Stable Booster: Much more stable at holding its own energy, thus you lose less speed during long flights, but reduced inital speed.
Overboost: Provides quicker boost, at the expense of energy.

Cloak:
Cloak: Reduced cloak energy usage from -500 to -400.
Phase: A 6 second cloak that has a quick recharge, good for quick movements.
Phantom: Very long cloak capasity, at the expense of energy and slow recharge.

Scanner:
Sensor: Reduced energy usage on default scanners.
Long-Range Sensor: A very long range scanner, but requires a larger amount of energy and space.

Guns:
Rapid3: Colony defense extra weapon. Horrid graphic, was just testing really.
Minigun: Another test at a gun that uses no energy, but low ammo, Fast inital velocity.
*I have an idea for energy only weapons, but I'll do that later.. The minigun doesn't work as I want it too anyways, since theres no proper gun delay in the game! I'd probably reduce its usage...*
Ram: Removed.

===

Colonies: I was able to get better colonies working:
Outpost: Rapid1, Rapid2, Laser2 - 22 shield regen, 2200 shields
Minor: Rapid2, Rapid3, Laser2 - 24 shield regen, 2400 shields - General use of rapid3.
Major: Rapid3, Rapid3, Laser2 - 26 shield regen, 2600 shields - Fires both rapid3 at the same time, thus more damage.

They should be good, may need tweaking. In the end with actual coding, I think the type of colony should be via planet, not via what you pick up. A asteriod is a outpost, always for example, but if you get colonies from earth, then they can be majors. Kinda a bug issue there thats needs solving. Also colonies that being moved to another planet should not fire anything.

I'd love to end up like I said, changing it so bombs kill people, while guns own the shield. Thus needing BOTH if you want to colonize planets. Currently, guns do small amounts of damage, while the bombs (didn't change those) Do a nice amount of damage on the shield, actually benifical using them now though, since one bomb use to destroy the whole shield.

Attached below, both the sample mod, and the ranking if you need that as well.