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Author Topic: Freighters: The uses of 'trade'.  (Read 1209 times)
AdmiralTigerclaw
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« on: December 27, 2008, 03:39:36 AM »

Okay, so in the ships discussion I was reminded we need to come up with a few ideas to improve the dynamics and usefullness of the Freighter class ship for the game.  Back in the credits thread, I discussed how the economics and industry in the game was a broken loop that favored skilled, long time runners of the game, and that newbs trying to break into the money loop stood almost no chance. 

This brings up a pair of dillema that can be solved with one execution.

1: How to 'fix' the in game economy.
2: How to make freighters more than just unarmed colony tugs.


The execution is: Give the frieghters something they can DO.  (And only THEY can do.)

First.  Being a freighter, they transport... Freight. 

So the first tier of freighter piloting and use would be the typical supply running.  I suggested two basic trade tasks that could earn a new player a small amount of cash.

1: Standard Trading. 
As I described in the credits thread, running some 'goods' between two planets like a typical trader is one way, the safest way, to make some easy (if very little at a time), cash.
2: Logistics Supporter
The second, more risky way I suggested that pays more, would be giving supply boosts to blockadable planets from self supporting planets...  These boosts being of more value because of the probability of having to fly a gauntlet of enemy combat ships.
3: Miner
A third way, would be acting as a transport ship for asteroid mines.  Asteroid mines (which will be explained shortly), would produce a certain number of tons of resources each second, which a freighter friendly with that mine, would come in, dock, and pick up.  Then fly these supplies to the planet of their choice.  Mined materials would have the same distance calculation as standard trading, but be worth more in base value.

Tier two of the freighter class involves more direct fleet support role, of which I suggested two options.
1: Resupply container drops.  In which you fly close to a friendly and drop 'supply containers' which would restock their weapons supplies without having to head to a friendly world.  Beware as enemies can grab them too.
2: Repair crews, which would work similar to supply drops, but instead of reloading weapons, would repair friendly ships.

Both of these would reward the player performing these actions with credits.

And then there's Tier three, which I thought about for a while to think of how to make it fit, and it clicked into place yesterday.  Engineering and construction work.

Tier three freighter work would be the most expensive and risky, but most rewarding of the freight jobs.  (Notice that RISK = REWARD factor I like to throw out?)  A freighter takes on an engineering construction crew, who are paid to build a number of useful freefloating or orbital structures. 

The engineering projects are as follows:

1: Defensive Gun Platform.
A free floating weapons position with just one medium gun.  Cheap and an easy target by itself.  But a few of these set up will make enemies think twice.  Any kills it makes count as your own.  This will stay in one place if you are in free flight, or if you're in orbit when you construct it, it will orbit the planet.

2: Asteroid Mine.
Built by an engineering crew, any other friendly freighter can come along and scoop up materials mined from this mine.  Once built, it produces materials.  Every time a friendly picks up these materials, you get paid, and again when those materials are delivered, giving you two payments for every one trip.  When scaled up to two or three mines being used by several other pilots, you can rake in the cash.  Asteroid mines can only be built on ASTEROID class objects.  They can be destroyed by attacks, so one should consider location and defensibility.

3: Supply Depot.
A more risky, and costly endevour, a supply depot is a facility that will reload friendlies that dock with it and you will be paid handsomly for each time such an event occures.  In large area games, a supply depot may be essential to an offensive in another system, where flying all the way back to base for a reload would be a bit of a stretch.

4: Jump Gate
Without a Q drive, towing a colony to another system is a brutal, sluggish task.  The use of a point to point Quantum Tunnel Gate relieves this issue by providing an easily constructable gateway in which to transport colonies across the distance instantly.  (That's FASTER than Q drive for those who don't understand english.)  To build a Jump Gate, a freighter must build Gate A, and Gate B... which will then connect them.  Players may only build ONE get set each.  Gate's are tough, but explode violently when destroyed, potentially destroying ships near them.  Also, when one gate is destroyed, the sudden collapse of the quantum tunnel shatters the other gate, resulting in mutual destruction.  Because of the strong Quantum tunnel effect from the gate, Q drive is inoperative for a short distance (1 screen?) around the gate.  (Preventing Q-hop ambush stunts.)  Players do not get paid for gate transits.  Be warned, gates work both ways and will allow the enemy to fly through it as much as friendlies.

5: Repair Yard
Like the supply depot, the repair yard is another essential to long range colonizing efforts.  Ships that dock get repaired, and you get paid.

6: Equipment Dock.
Like a starbase, but without guns.  The EQ Dock allows players to adjust their upgrades and loadouts without having to fly back to a starbase.  No returns are gained here.

7: Battlestation
The ultimate freighter pilot investment, the battlestation is a seething platform of automated guns that compliment a starbase quite well.  With four defensive weapons, and four offensive weapons, a battlestation is equally at home fending off attack, or nailing a battleship stupid enough to get close.  However, they are costly, and investing in one should be a well thought out decision, as getting one, and having it destroyed in short order would be a multi-BILLION credit loss.



Okay, some imaginative scenarios.

1: The Mining Complex.  (Using the SOL system for Beginners as a 'map'.)
FC1 (Freight Captain) has been busy, he 'owns' a couple of asteroids grouped together near Neptune, and Triton colony.  Each asteroid has a mine constructed on it, and both AI and player frieght pilots are making use of them, getting him plenty of cash.  In order to defend his assets, he's used the return on the mines to build several gun platforms, a repair depot, and a supply depot to assist combat ships in the area.  After a recent skirmish near venus, he's become a little nervous, and recently built a battlestation.  An enemy frigate chases one of the defending ships into the area, and not realizing how built up the asteroid complex has become, has walked his small frigate right into the firing line of six defensive guns, and the battlestation itself, and got creamed.  Irritated by the loss, the enemy player rallies a fleet to attack the complex... they are successfull, but FC1 is long gone and has made gains off the mines and stations he'd built to offset their loss.  The enemy fleet loses initiative while being distracted by the mining operation, and Venus is seccured before they are flanked by a battleship and carrier task force.

2: Staging point. (First contact map)
In an empty area of space outside the 'west' side of Tau ceti, a lone freighter lurks.  Away from the prying eyes of the main travel rout, he's built a jump gate.  The jump gate leads to the far side of SOL, near the Triton Colony.  Completely undisturbed by the overall events of the game, he continues to work his mission.  Using return from asteroid mines to fuel his construction, he builds a couple of battlestations, depots, yards, and docks, and then sets up a perimiter of guns.  It would take a decicated assault to bring this staging area down and knock out it's jump gate.  When the word is given that the gate is ready, his fleet pulls back to a token fight on the main conflict border, and colony tugging freight captains begin hauling triton colonies through the gate into Tau Ceti.  Completely unprepared for the flanking attack, the enemy loses a planet to a full scale colonization effort before they even have a chance to react.  Using the foothold gained by the staging point, the assault gains momentum and Tau Ceti gets pressured from two sides, one side by actual attacking fleet forces, and the other by a colonization force backstopped by a formidably defended staging area.




There are no limits asside from the Gate to the number of objects built.  If a player wants to fortify something, he can fortify.  The only limit is his 'bank account', the bigger the item, the more expensive it is, which will prevent all out spamming of battlestations.  To prevent more modest spamming or, 'gun swarming' like mad without a significant planning time to set it up, all objects have a set 'build time' before they are active.  Players may only build one item at a time, and construction sites can be destroyed in mid-build.
All items built in freefloat space will stay in the spot permenantly unless destroyed.  If the object is constructed while the ship is in orbit, that object will gain an orbit path around that planet.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 03:42:08 AM by AdmiralTigerclaw » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2008, 06:38:19 AM »

I have really nothing to disagree with this all, it seems pretty much of a good idea.

I'd also -- Since freighters are techically engineers too -- allow them to upgrade planet defences and such like that to a certain point. Would make a interesting role, defence and building + mining, more or less.
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 12:50:38 AM »

Well, yes.  Essentially that's what I was thinking.  Turn freighters into engineers.  (Just, without the shotgun.)  The only thing I don't see is upgrading planet's defenses.  I mean, you can put a bunch of orbital installations in place that have as much firepower as a small fleet, why do you need to beef up the planet's stats itself?

(Plus, the planet should have a LOT more abilities to do that kind of thing itself... seeing as a planet is like a massive, heavily populated starship.)
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 04:03:13 PM »

Trying to math something up here to logic out a working system.

Tiger Notes...  Think of this as an online version of a scribble sheet...
-----------------


<GOAL>
Working Economy System

<Stipulations>
Elegance in simplicity

commodities exchanged
- Minerals (Metals)
- Supplies (Food)
- Wares (Luxury items)
- Credits  (Money)
- Modules  (Equipment)

* Keep gameplay freeform as much as possible.  Remove modules and wares directly from the source chain and make independant.  Ships and player gameplay should not be dependant on economy chain past credits.

Planet types in use

Minor
Moon  (Moons are blockadeables or self supporting, remove.)
Blockadable
Self Supporting


Primary Commodity chain concept (Game affecting)

Source ---> Manufacturing ---> Product

Minor  ----> Self Supporting ----> Blockadable

Minerals from asteroid mine ----> space refinery or self supporting planet factory  ----> supplies

== Logic barrier : Minerals do not become supplies.  FOOD is supplies.  Minerals become metal.


Complication introduced...

Translate minerals into food?  How?
Diverge?  How?  K.I.S.S. 


Concept extension

Self Supporting planet:

Produce: Minerals X, convert to supplies? Y2 rate?  Produces supplies from minerals, but lack rate amd ease of mineral production of asteroid.

Minor
Produce Minerals at rate X3.  Does not convert.


Minor ----> SS or Orbital Refinery :: Output = Supplies amount X.

**Still does not solve logic error...

***Logic error carries over to Blockadable planet. 
- Blockadable planet is not self supporting because it cannot produce food.
- Blockadable planet can produce minerals...


What am I doing here?

I'm trying to translate asteroid mines into more than just credit sources.  I'm trying to figure out how they would boost the ability of colonies without needlessly increasing the complication of the gameplay itself.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 04:13:50 PM by AdmiralTigerclaw » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 04:36:23 PM »

Engineers carry pistols/MP5 when they are in the field for War...
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 04:39:56 PM »

What, does that have to do with anything?
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »

What, does that have to do with anything?
Quote
Turn freighters into engineers.  (Just, without the shotgun.)

That has to do with it Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 04:52:39 PM »

EVERYTHING (but not really.)

I'm kind of confused by your above post.

So we are going for an credit system for players, but resouces for planets, correct?
Asteroid mines should be able to pump out alot of resouces for building, because thats really all there used for. Maybe some special inital stuff for some high building stuff, like jump gates, or such.

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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 05:59:25 PM »

Well, credits for players... yes. 

The problem with planets is we have a defined setup that you have a Self Supporting, and then Non-Self Supporting (blockadable.)

The key difference being that Self Supporting planets would be the ones that can produce food without external aid.

What I'm trying to do, is that though the asteroid mines will fix the economy problem, now you've got to find a way to motivate players (asside from the freighter captains) to protect them.

So the minerals they produce need to be useful to gameplay, without limiting how combat goes, and without crating a whole system that's overly complicated.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 12:38:22 AM »

A thought:

Wouldn't this affect as well the old school ways of duelling? I mean, all this sounds excellent, yet will take resources from dogfight into special ops... and a lot...
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 12:50:17 AM »

The entire battle system is going to rework the old dueling styles.


Know how the medium heavy ships behave now?  Heavy Cruisers and up?

I want that to be how the light capitals behave.  Since the bigger ship classes are truely going to be... BIG.

The classic playing style will be among the smaller faster ships in SF, fighters, corvettes, and frigates and destroyers.

Then you start getting into monitor and cruiser sized vessels that behave more like current battleships and dreads....  while the battleships and dreads of the new version will be TRUE beasts.


Now, back on topic.  No, generally the idea is to keep the combat gameplay freeform and open.  (IE, don't limit what the player can do base on the state of the game...  Unless everything's been destroyed.)

Dueling was not what the game was made for, just what players evolved into doing because the core gameplay was so broken.

Now, giving the game an overhaul means gameplay's BACK on the menu!  But that won't preclude the old honor duels...   Frigate fighters, strike craft dogfights...  Tests of skill.

Hell, I'd love to see a carrier duel. 
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 01:24:35 PM »

I think I've got the system worked out, kind of hit me while I was trying to take a nap.




COMODDITIES

Metal
Food




Mines



Self Supporting
 Food Units, and Grows to population max at all times.
Uses metals to decrease required industrial land that can be used for agricultural processes.

Non Self Supporting
Does not produce food.  Requires food units to produce more population.



Support chain


Asteroid Mines -----> SS Planets   ----> NSS Planets.

Self Supporting planets, like Earth, produce 'colonists', and food at a rate set by the conditions of the planet.

When metal from mines is delivered to a SS planet.  The metal 'increases' the rate of food production above normal.  The rate is of no concern, as the metal value gets converted into food units instantly on delivery, growing the planet's food stockpile.

Food is then hauled by friegter to non SS planets, where the food is used up over time to cause population growth.  When the food runs out, the population stops growing.  (Or, to prevent a total shutdown, the population grows at a snail's pace.  That at LEAST keeps the game from stalling out.)

When a non-SS planet is orbited, the 'supply percentage' as it is called, drops from 100 towards zero as before, but will not climb back up unless a freighter delivers a food run.  Then it will instantly return to full upon delivery.  The same will occure if the freighter drops food while a ship is orbiting, ensuring that the player ACTUALLY blockades the planet in the true sense of the word.

The 'supply' percentage should be renamed Morale or something.  when Morale fails, the planet surrenders to whoever's in orbit  When the planet has food,  morale falls half the speed, and restores if you leave orbit.

Points of interest:

- More emphasis is placed on holding self sustaining planets (Your homeworlds), as they effectively feed the rest of your empire and keep it going.

- A strong number of asteroid mines make even a single self sustaining planet a very powerful food generator.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 12:34:55 AM »

Oh ok, so basically this would be a remake of the entire way of how the game develops on its on, say, on a sol system?
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 12:47:31 AM »

Well, I'm tying in the in-game economy I'm trying to build into actual gameplay, so that it's not just something going on in the background.  Since we're also overhauling how colonizing is done, tie it together and make it useful, but not 'absolutely necissary'.
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